[ic] FAQ - Top quoting/posting - What is it? (long)

[Marty Tennison]

There has been a lot of references to top quoting/posting lately. I know
that when I first joined the list I didn't have any idea what top
quoting/posting meant. So I did a search on the subject and found some
good information that I'll post here for anyone who might wonder what it
is.

The following text is used with permission and can be found at...
http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanb/documents/quotingguide.html

================ Begin ====================

TITLE: How to reply to messages on Mailing lists or the art of quoting
Introduction


The essence of a message is to have clear communication. A poorly
constructed message is not only harder to read for the direct recipient
but also for other people that would like to join the discussion. A well
quoted message will show question and response in the natural reading
direction, which will make the message much easier to read. 

Lets show a step by step on how quoting is done properly. 

Step 1) Remove the unnecessary parts of a message:
It is recommended that you remove as much unnecessary information as 
possible from the original message. Like the 'hello' and 'goodbye'
lines. They are a common form of politeness but do not add to the
essence of the message. Just like the signature. It's a nice decoration
but not when you reply to someone. 


Step 2) Respond below the questions:
It is recommended that you reply below the topics. Just as with
questions from readers in a magazine, the journalists respond below the
question to follow the natural reading order. 

In this way people won't have to read down and later on go back to the
top of the message. Remember that most people on Usenet read many
messages every day. And the responses mostly appear much later, so they
cannot always remember the exact message. It is also much easier for the
next person who wants to respond to your answer. 


Step 3) Reply below each paragraph:
Digital texts have another big advantage: You can split the text and
respond below single lines and subjects. 


Step 4) Summaries:
Sometimes people need many words to describe their question. In this
case it is a good idea to make a summary. To let the readers know it is
a summary construct them like this: 

[snip: the summary]

Examples
Now lets have a look at some examples. 


======== Example #1 Begin - (Doing it the wrong way) ===========
Hi Erik, 

Hotel 'xxx' is a good one, I have been there myself. Car rental-company 
'yyy' 
is around the corner, couldn't be more 
perfect.

Cya, Peter.


Erik wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am looking for a decent hotel in Paris, not to expensive, preferably
near 
> the center and easily reachable with public 
transport. 

> I am also looking for a car-rental company in 
Paris.
>
> Cya, Erik
======== Example #1 End ================


As you can see the complete article is quoted and the reaction is on
top. This makes the article hard to read. 

Here is the the author's original message:

Hi,

I am looking for a decent hotel in Paris,
not to expensive, preferably near the 
center and easily reachable with public
transport.

I am also looking for a car-rental 
company in Paris.

Cya, Erik

Now the reply, doing it the right way:


======== Example #2 Begin (Doing it the right way) ================
Erik wrote: 
>
> I am looking for a decent hotel in Paris, not to
> expensive, preferably near the center and easily
> reachable with public transport.

Hotel 'xxx' is really good, I have been there myself.

> I am also looking for a car-rental company in Paris.

Rentalcompany 'yyy' is around the corner. That's also very practical.


Cya, Peter.
======== Example #2 End ================


As you can see this easily readable. Even if you have never read the
original message. No unnecessary hello's and goodbyes and the two
replies are directly under their questions.

Do you notice that Peter does not put 'hello' at the beginning of his
reply. That was not meant to be impolite. It is the customary form on
Usenet when following-up to a message.

Now suppose Peter did not know any car-rentals. His message would look
like this:


======== Example #3 Begin ================
Erik wrote: 
>
> I am looking for a decent hotel in Paris, 
> not to expensive, preferably near the 
> center and easy reachable with public 
> transport.

Hotel 'xxx' is really good, I have been there myself.


Cya, Peter.
======== Example #3 End ================


The car-rental lines have been removed. It would be rather pointless to
say something like: "Sorry, I don't know.". Not that it is completely
wrong, you should decide for yourself what is functional and what is
useless quoting.

People who do not know their subject very well tend to give too much
information to be on the safe side. If the original poster had used many
words to explain that he was looking for a hotel, you could summarize
the question. Put your summarization between square brackets [] so
readers can see at once that it is a summary.


======== Example #4 Begin (Proper use of summary) ================
Erik wrote:

> [snip: looking for a hotel in Paris]

Hotel 'xxx' is really good, I have been there myself.


Cya, Peter.
======== Example #4 End ===============-


Multi-level quoting
Usenet discussions often are group discussions with more than two
participants. To keep these discussions easy to understand tidy quoting
is very important. You need to look ahead to understand what is
happening.


======== Example #5 Begin ================
Pete wrote: 
> Erik wrote:
>
> > I am looking for a decent hotel in Paris, 
> > not to expensive, preferably near the
> > center and easily reachable with public 
> > transport.
>
> Hotel 'xxx' is really good, I have been 
> there myself.

I agree, but they are also often occupied. I would also recommend hotel
'zzz'.

> > I am also looking for a car-rental 
> > company in Paris.
>
> Rentalcompany 'yyy' is around the corner. 
> That's also very practical.

Traveling with a car in Paris is terrible if you don't know the road.
I would always travel with a cab.

//Rick
======== Example #5 End ================


The odd thing is that the more you try to do about a quoted text the
worse it starts to look.

Many newsreaders have the option to replace the quote-char ``>
'' with something else. It may look nice or original to change
that but the essence of the message is the text and not the
quote-char. If you change it you only add to the unimportant
stuff people shouldn't have to pay attention to. Also lots of
newsreaders have nice features that make different levels of
quoting easier to read, like colorisation. These features depend
on your cooperation. 

The "person x wrote:" line is very useful for multilevel
quotings. Don't remove it. Some people put very much information
in this line. It may seem very nice but again, this is
non-cooperative and adds nothing to the discussion. Please keep
it brief.


Wrapping:
The way you present a piece of plain text to your audience is very
important. Some newsreaders don't understand plain-text and they vaguely
heard something about long lines. So they make sure your lines never get
any longer than, lets say, 72 chars. It results in texts that look like
this:


======== Example #6 Begin ================
I just came back from Paris and I wanted to tell everyone how 
happy
I am with your excellent advice. Hotel 'xxx' was not occupied,
it
was very clean and the service was excellent. I also want to
tell
that I met a person in that hotel who went to the same congress
as
me and he offered me a ride all the time so I never had to
worry
about the transport.
======== Example #6 End ================


I Don't know about you, but I don't even bother reading messages like
that. Got better things to do. Compare that message to:


======== Example #7 Begin ================
I just came back from Paris and I wanted to tell everyone how happy I am
with your excellent advice. Hotel 'xxx' was not occupied, it was very
clean and the service was excellent.

I also want to tell that I met a person in that hotel who went to the
same congress as me and he offered me a ride all the time so I never had
to worry about the transport.
======== Example #7 End ================


Would you believe it is exactly the same message? Fact is that people
tend to ignore sloppy messages and are attracted to decent messages.


The closing argument:
What you do on any mailing list and how you present your messages is up
to you. The only arguments I have to encourage decent quoting is
readability.

You won't make many friends by driving too fast on the highway nor by
playing music very loud in the middle of the night.

The essence of mail lists is cooperation and not originality and
frivolity in the way you present your messages. I agree this is not the
highway and you won't keep anybody awake by doing it your way. You just
lose your audience.


-- 
Marty Tennison <marty@sediva.com>