[ic] Re: Unrecognized character \x7F
info at eros-shop.co.uk
Wed Apr 14 04:03:59 EDT 2004
At 04:37 14/04/2004, you wrote:
> > From: interchange-users-bounces at icdevgroup.org
> > bounces at icdevgroup.org] On Behalf Of Rodney S. Foley
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: interchange-users-bounces at icdevgroup.org [mailto:interchange-
> > users-
> > > bounces at icdevgroup.org] On Behalf Of John Young
> > >
> > > Rodney S. Foley wrote:
> > >
> > > > The problem here sounds like I am missing some 3rd party
> > If
> > > that
> > > > is the case, how can I found out what they are sense Interchange
> > doesn't
> > > > publish them in the readme?
> > >
> > > In the current IC tarball, there is README.rpm-dist, which contains:
> > >
> > > perl -MCPAN -e'install Bundle::CPAN'
> > >
> > > Then install the main modules Interchange uses:
> > >
> > > perl -MCPAN -e'install Bundle::Interchange'
> > >
> > > Instead you may want to install a bundle that includes many
> > > but
> > > useful modules:
> > >
> > > perl -MCPAN -e'install Bundle::InterchangeKitchenSink'
> > >
> > > If you look inside those bundles, you will know what might be
> > > As has been stated, though, it sounds like your install is failing
> > before
> > > even getting to that point. Perhaps you could try the install on a
> > > different system to help troubleshoot the situation.
> > >
> > > Those bundles were put together by Mike, free of charge and out of
> > > goodness of his heart to make things easier for all of us.
> > >
> > > There is also discussion of Perl modules in the archives of this
> > > list,
> > > accessible and searchable via www.icdevgroup.org, courtesy of Mike,
> > Racke,
> > > Jon, and a few others... free of charge, and to make things easier
> > all
> > > of us. Us users don't even have to pay for the bandwidth of that
> > server.
> > >
> > > > I would like to thank Mike, Racke and all the others who just
> > the
> > > > message who might be able to help, for the incredible welcome to
> > > > Interchange. This is the welcome you want to give everyone you
> > to
> > > > drive off, if that is what you are trying to do, just keep it up.
> > >
> > > Rodney, you need to think about the hundreds of hours Mike, Racke,
> > > others have put into those install routines already... and thousands
> > > hours into the rest of Interchange... and we all are allowed to
> > > from it. Do you think Mike or Racke need all of the install
> > for
> > > themselves? Much of this sort of thing is written for others.
> > >
> > > The biggest problem with Interchange is that it can be very deep and
> > > complex
> > > because it can handle very complex requirements (much as with an
> > > application
> > > like Sendmail).
> > >
> > > Show some patience, and be prepared to invest a lot of time (unless
> > > hire
> > > a consultant to do it for you). And think about how much work these
> > guys
> > > have already put into what you have downloaded.
> > >
> > >
> > > John Young
> > John,
> > Thanks for you polite and thoughtful response.
> > I have installed a lot of Open Source, Freeware, and High-priced
> > There is good and bad in every group. Sometimes the software is
> > but
> > the install procedures or process is just horrible, or the software
> > but it has a great install procedures or process. On a rare occasion
> > get a great software with a great install procedures or process.
> > However, all-in-all I have never seen such a poorly supported product
> > OpenSource or not.
>There you go again attacking Interchange.
>This product is supported well, you just chose to go on the attack
>before giving anyone the chance to answer your question. You gave
>everyone exactly one day to read your problem and you came to the
>conclusion it was a bad installer, bad package or a bad readme file when
>in actuality it is a problem with your perl installation nothing more,
>nothing less. You've also come to the conclusion that no one wants to
>help and that everyone thinks they are better off without new IC users.
>Seems to me you jumped the gun and haven't given anyone a chance and you
>expected a miracle overnight. Maybe no one has seen that problem
>If you search the archives you will finds hundreds of thousands of
>questions and responses both from members of the ICDEVGROUP and from
>users of the software. The proves to me that there is a support
>structure here. I know for a fact that there is such a structure
>because I ask questions and they get answers from multiple people. In
>return I try to answer questions I know the answers too.
>I started out just like you, installing IC, making changes, running into
>problems, but at that point I took a different path. I took the advice
>of others and tried not to lay blame on the creators of IC and I did not
>expect everyone else to fix my problems. The last thing I wanted to do
>was to bite the hand that feeds me (in this case the IC creators)
>because I knew if I burned that bridge they wouldn't help me out in the
>future. You sir are burning that bridge. You as a brand new user went
>on the attack. I know if I had built something like IC and someone came
>to my home and started attacking the installer and documentation I would
>turn my cheek and not help them. Mike, the creator of IC responded to
>your comments and even went as far as to tell you it's a problem with
>your Perl install, even after you talked a bunch of crap about the
>readme, the installer and the group.
> > I do appreciate all developers and the time the put into a product,
> > especially when it is an OpenSource product. However, that doesn't
> > them the freedom to be rude, or insensitive to new users of their
>Perhaps if you weren't rude FIRST there wouldn't be an issue now would
>there? You assumed the documentation was lacking and that's why you
>couldn't get IC to install, that is NOT the case. All Interchange needs
>to install properly is a standard install of Perl, nothing more, nothing
>less. Once IC installs it will tell you what modules need to be
> > They need to be especially nice to new users, they want to make it as
> > as possible for there product to be adopted. Making a killing
> > but making it difficult to use or install, doesn't help group your
> > base. Then when they have what they think is a smooth process down,
> > someone who isn't at the GURU level of perl and linux comes in, it may
> > be as smooth as they thought.
>IC is NOT difficult to install. The process is easy if you read the
>directions. If there is a problem with your Perl install that is not
>the fault of Interchange, the readme, or the installer. You couldn't
>even run Makefile.PL on your system, there is an issue there.
>The creators of IC are nice to new users when they follow the FAQ, are
>polite on the list, don't act high and mighty (which I get a sense of
>from your posts) and don't expect free support (which you seem to
>expect). Instead of telling everyone in the community how you think
>things are supposed to happen maybe you could observe how things work
>and then act accordingly.
> > I am a developer also, and I understand where they are coming from. I
> > take
> > QA a little different I guess. I always have my QA staff handle the
> > QA
> > stuff. However, I always try to find all levels of users outside the
> > staff to take the product as we would deliver it and see if they can
> > install
> > and use it with out problems. Then we work out the rough areas.
> > Regardless, I guess I will have to find another product to use for my
> > needs,
> > since the creators and high-level people involved in Interchange do
> > seem
> > to want help in making the install process smoother, and easier for
> > common person. If they did they wouldn't attack a person pointing out
> > problems with the process they would take advantage of the situation
> > utilize the person to make the process better. Isn't that what the
> > OpenSource Community is all about?
>When will you realize the installer works? You are running an obscure
>kernel from some distro/add-on that may have issues with Perl or lock
>down what Perl can do. The installer works on a fresh Redhat install, I
>can verify this because I did one just last week.
> > Anyway I will try it on another completely different server, if it has
> > same problem I guess I will call it quites.
> > -Rodney
>When you do this on a different server, try it on something not running
>grsecurity and see what your results are. If it works on another server
>then maybe you will believe that the installer works and there is a
>problem with your system. I'd be real careful what you say, you've
>probably just about alienated yourself from help at this point.
Excuse me everyone, but it's my understanding of this list that we are
supposed to help people of ALL levels and not waste time, energy and
emotions on flaming. If some vital info is missing, don't criticise and
point to various web pages, instead ask for the information and be NICE
about it. Anyone who's spent any time in a support environment knows that
this is the best way to handle this kind of situation.
I too have been on the hot end of some of Mike's comments and it's not
We are ALL grateful for him developing and writing IC (along with the other
core members) and it is a fabulous program, but just because these people
hold massive knowledge doesn't entitle them to belittle, flam or shout at
those who don't
I do mean to point the finger and whilst those who do understand IC in
depth continue to look down on those who are new or slow to pick up certain
things this list is going nowhere and is NOT a nice place to be.
Please can you all put the heat aside, grow up and get on with what this
list was meant for, to help people.
A very disappointed
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